Having completed a PDC with Aranya i argued that the PDC is really just an 'introduction to permaculture design and didnt Mollison say "that anyone who has done a PDC could teach permaculture" but after qualified that by suggesting that not everyone should teach. I spent 7 years completing my diploma to gain a better understanding of premature design and a part of that, to complete the 'dissemination' part of the diploma led me to co-teach and also to gain a recognised qualification in being able to teach/train. I have never been the lead tutor on a PDC and have no desire to. The PDC is 72 hours but a lot of that is focussed on other areas ancillary to doing design much of which i had no desire to learn in order to teach it well. I also had no desire to maintain a CPD in teaching skills - anyone who thinks there is a lot of money to be made from teaching PDC's should be prepared to make it a career choice. Do i think it is a 'pyramid scheme?' Not at present unless someone can provide evidence to the contrary? When friends and neighbours ask me for design work my first inclination is to advise them to do a PDC with a recognised teacher and i will be happy to help/support them with the design for their garden/project etc and not for money but then beer is always welcome. I much prefer the 'strategy for societal change' approach and the 'Retrosuburbia' strategy could also provide a key tool in this. as Mollison said in an interview "Scott London: A reviewer once described your teachings as seditious?", Mollison: "Yes, it was very perceptive. I teach self-reliance, the world's most subversive practice. I teach people how to grow their own food, which is shockingly subversive. So, yes, it’s seditious. But it’s peaceful sedition."
I taught a lot of PDC's here in France solo, which is very tiring. I did it to kick start stuff and now I only teach with teams. We have also managed to maintain the message that Permaculture is a'strategy for societal change' . I set up the diploma system here as an ethical thing that people going on a PDC could be sure that the teachers were qualified to teach and would teach from their own experience and not from something they read in a book or just heard from their PDC teacher.
and no. People don't tend to go with the experienced designer. They go with what they can afford. 300 € price difference in the same country and everyone signs up for the cheaper one...
And I really like to hear from you about what "decently compensated" mean - because you never talk money - when it comes to money you are always vague. So: what is decently compensate?
"Having got their diploma said person can, if they wish, lead full design courses but not before.." is not correct. Whoever has done a PDC can teach the PDC. Full stop. There is no common understanding that A diploma is required - at least not in Europe. Even the diploma teachers guild in the UK says that the PDC can be taught by anyone.
yes, anyone can teach what ever they like and that isnt restricted to permaculture design. However if you want to receive a certificate issued by a the Permaculture Association of Britain etc then your course will need to have a lead tutor that holds the diploma. Mollison said that anyone who has done a PDC could teach permaculture but after qualified that by suggesting that not everyone should teach. Tutors supported by the PAB will have demonstrated that they can teach by holding a relevant teaching qualification. The PAB recommend that courses are led by 'certified educators'
Here in aus there is the main facilitator, and often multiple guest facilitators & speakers on different topics(for eg the course I completed had a guest facilitator for keyline, another for integrated pest management, another for appropiate technology, & so on), & I could definitely see the benefit of this not only to the main facilitator, but also us as students. But there is certainly no current requirement in Australia for needing to hold a diploma to teach, though certain educational facilities are trying to implement change on this.
There are no Permaculture Police so anyone can do anything they want. I an ethical world we wouldn't need to try and ensure that people leading PDCs are experienced enough to do it in a good way. In our unethical world this isn't the case and we have had examples here of people setting up PDCs without the knowledge and experience needed to do this correctly.
Oh that’s a bit sad as that would mean that people undertaking them whose lives could be changed and inspired by doing the course and being enlightened by PmC(like most in the class I completed were) might miss out on getting that inspiration that they might get if it was relayed to them properly. I completed the Pdc, and also did an intro to PmC facilitators training course at the Australasian Permaculture Conference held in perth where I am, where many of the most revered PmC leaders were present(including David Holmgren), and have been involved with PmC groups here for years, but yet still do not consider myself adequately equipped to teach, despite that being where I thought I wanted to take it & part of why I got so immersed in it all. It’s a lot!!
It can take a while until one feels 'equipped'! In fact IMO it's an evolutionary process, the heart of what I teach remains the same, Permaculture engineering, a lot of other stuff has changed or been added to.
A bit of a side note-I feel like just 72 hours is a very short time to try cover as much as permaculture encompasses!! It really should span a greater time period imo.
In a way I agree. I would say that it's long enough to give people a good grounding in the design part of PmC. Someone woiuld then have to go on and get specific training and experience in whatever aspect of PmC they want to work with. This is true of any course really.
Maybe they come across differently over there, but here it honestly felt just long enough to get a taste for the whole concept but that one(or many) could get lost in side quests and wormholes from it for much much longer so very easily, before really getting head around it properly. I was a bit overwhelmed with just how much there was just touched upon. Due to my passion for the subject I have been asked by several people to try explain what permaculture is, though I’ve gotten a lot better at that, to start with after the Pdc I fell so far short with my answer beginning with ‘ummm it pretty much encompasses EVERYTHING’ and I really feel that’s really the case!
There should be the same kind of requirement for those wanting to teach as a worldwide standard! Here in Australia you are supposedly technically qualified to teach a course once you’ve done a Pdc, though having done a Pdc myself I can attest for just having done one certainly not being anywhere near enough to feel equipped to teach one, that’s for sure! In fact, even the whole passing it process didn’t really seem enough either-I don’t actually feel terribly confident in my own design skills after having done a course, and wouldn’t venture out to sell my services as a designer based on that alone. But I guess that’s a whole other can of worms isn’t it-the criteria for having ‘passed’ completion of a course 🤔 I wonder what the difference is between the countries on that one in fact?! There is no global standard is there?
We have, in the past, had a problem with under-experienced designers coming to France to lead courses. They were, as you say, told that after a PDC they could 'go out and teach' . There is no way that this is good for the movement in general. I agree that someone may have a lot of previous experience and so be qualified to teach, this is why we have a , not often used, fast track sub-system to the Diploma process.
Hi Jakki, see my comment to Nicksan above but effectively Mollison said that "anyone who has done a PDC could teach permaculture but after qualified that by suggesting that not everyone should teach." My own experience was that having completed a PDC (in UK) that was more of an 'introduction to permaculture design' and i went onto complete the diploma to gain greater understanding in applied design. I also gained a teaching certificate so that i could confidently co-teach on PDC's but i feel a whole lot more comfortable doing design work, but not for money myself - beer is always welcome though.
in future with soon to happen food security issues, society will subsidize this valuable training and more.
Having completed a PDC with Aranya i argued that the PDC is really just an 'introduction to permaculture design and didnt Mollison say "that anyone who has done a PDC could teach permaculture" but after qualified that by suggesting that not everyone should teach. I spent 7 years completing my diploma to gain a better understanding of premature design and a part of that, to complete the 'dissemination' part of the diploma led me to co-teach and also to gain a recognised qualification in being able to teach/train. I have never been the lead tutor on a PDC and have no desire to. The PDC is 72 hours but a lot of that is focussed on other areas ancillary to doing design much of which i had no desire to learn in order to teach it well. I also had no desire to maintain a CPD in teaching skills - anyone who thinks there is a lot of money to be made from teaching PDC's should be prepared to make it a career choice. Do i think it is a 'pyramid scheme?' Not at present unless someone can provide evidence to the contrary? When friends and neighbours ask me for design work my first inclination is to advise them to do a PDC with a recognised teacher and i will be happy to help/support them with the design for their garden/project etc and not for money but then beer is always welcome. I much prefer the 'strategy for societal change' approach and the 'Retrosuburbia' strategy could also provide a key tool in this. as Mollison said in an interview "Scott London: A reviewer once described your teachings as seditious?", Mollison: "Yes, it was very perceptive. I teach self-reliance, the world's most subversive practice. I teach people how to grow their own food, which is shockingly subversive. So, yes, it’s seditious. But it’s peaceful sedition."
I taught a lot of PDC's here in France solo, which is very tiring. I did it to kick start stuff and now I only teach with teams. We have also managed to maintain the message that Permaculture is a'strategy for societal change' . I set up the diploma system here as an ethical thing that people going on a PDC could be sure that the teachers were qualified to teach and would teach from their own experience and not from something they read in a book or just heard from their PDC teacher.
and no. People don't tend to go with the experienced designer. They go with what they can afford. 300 € price difference in the same country and everyone signs up for the cheaper one...
And I really like to hear from you about what "decently compensated" mean - because you never talk money - when it comes to money you are always vague. So: what is decently compensate?
"Having got their diploma said person can, if they wish, lead full design courses but not before.." is not correct. Whoever has done a PDC can teach the PDC. Full stop. There is no common understanding that A diploma is required - at least not in Europe. Even the diploma teachers guild in the UK says that the PDC can be taught by anyone.
yes, anyone can teach what ever they like and that isnt restricted to permaculture design. However if you want to receive a certificate issued by a the Permaculture Association of Britain etc then your course will need to have a lead tutor that holds the diploma. Mollison said that anyone who has done a PDC could teach permaculture but after qualified that by suggesting that not everyone should teach. Tutors supported by the PAB will have demonstrated that they can teach by holding a relevant teaching qualification. The PAB recommend that courses are led by 'certified educators'
Over here someone has their main and a secondary tutor. This is a great help to the primary tutor I must admit.
Here in aus there is the main facilitator, and often multiple guest facilitators & speakers on different topics(for eg the course I completed had a guest facilitator for keyline, another for integrated pest management, another for appropiate technology, & so on), & I could definitely see the benefit of this not only to the main facilitator, but also us as students. But there is certainly no current requirement in Australia for needing to hold a diploma to teach, though certain educational facilities are trying to implement change on this.
There are no Permaculture Police so anyone can do anything they want. I an ethical world we wouldn't need to try and ensure that people leading PDCs are experienced enough to do it in a good way. In our unethical world this isn't the case and we have had examples here of people setting up PDCs without the knowledge and experience needed to do this correctly.
Oh that’s a bit sad as that would mean that people undertaking them whose lives could be changed and inspired by doing the course and being enlightened by PmC(like most in the class I completed were) might miss out on getting that inspiration that they might get if it was relayed to them properly. I completed the Pdc, and also did an intro to PmC facilitators training course at the Australasian Permaculture Conference held in perth where I am, where many of the most revered PmC leaders were present(including David Holmgren), and have been involved with PmC groups here for years, but yet still do not consider myself adequately equipped to teach, despite that being where I thought I wanted to take it & part of why I got so immersed in it all. It’s a lot!!
It can take a while until one feels 'equipped'! In fact IMO it's an evolutionary process, the heart of what I teach remains the same, Permaculture engineering, a lot of other stuff has changed or been added to.
A bit of a side note-I feel like just 72 hours is a very short time to try cover as much as permaculture encompasses!! It really should span a greater time period imo.
In a way I agree. I would say that it's long enough to give people a good grounding in the design part of PmC. Someone woiuld then have to go on and get specific training and experience in whatever aspect of PmC they want to work with. This is true of any course really.
Maybe they come across differently over there, but here it honestly felt just long enough to get a taste for the whole concept but that one(or many) could get lost in side quests and wormholes from it for much much longer so very easily, before really getting head around it properly. I was a bit overwhelmed with just how much there was just touched upon. Due to my passion for the subject I have been asked by several people to try explain what permaculture is, though I’ve gotten a lot better at that, to start with after the Pdc I fell so far short with my answer beginning with ‘ummm it pretty much encompasses EVERYTHING’ and I really feel that’s really the case!
There should be the same kind of requirement for those wanting to teach as a worldwide standard! Here in Australia you are supposedly technically qualified to teach a course once you’ve done a Pdc, though having done a Pdc myself I can attest for just having done one certainly not being anywhere near enough to feel equipped to teach one, that’s for sure! In fact, even the whole passing it process didn’t really seem enough either-I don’t actually feel terribly confident in my own design skills after having done a course, and wouldn’t venture out to sell my services as a designer based on that alone. But I guess that’s a whole other can of worms isn’t it-the criteria for having ‘passed’ completion of a course 🤔 I wonder what the difference is between the countries on that one in fact?! There is no global standard is there?
We have, in the past, had a problem with under-experienced designers coming to France to lead courses. They were, as you say, told that after a PDC they could 'go out and teach' . There is no way that this is good for the movement in general. I agree that someone may have a lot of previous experience and so be qualified to teach, this is why we have a , not often used, fast track sub-system to the Diploma process.
Hi Jakki, see my comment to Nicksan above but effectively Mollison said that "anyone who has done a PDC could teach permaculture but after qualified that by suggesting that not everyone should teach." My own experience was that having completed a PDC (in UK) that was more of an 'introduction to permaculture design' and i went onto complete the diploma to gain greater understanding in applied design. I also gained a teaching certificate so that i could confidently co-teach on PDC's but i feel a whole lot more comfortable doing design work, but not for money myself - beer is always welcome though.